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1. Bryan Lunduke (bryanlunduke@mastodon.rocks)'s status on Saturday, 10-Feb-2018 12:19:12 EST Bryan Lunduke

   What is wrong with South Africa? They are, literally, out of water. Cape Town, which will be out of drinkable water "within weeks", launches protests when Israeli's offer help.

   They would, literally, rather die of lack of water than let Jews help them.

   https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saundersonmeyer-drought-commentary/commentary-in-drought-hit-south-africa-the-politics-of-water-idUSKBN1FP226

   1. lnxw48a1 (lnxw48a1@nu.federati.net)'s status on Saturday, 10-Feb-2018 12:21:34 EST lnxw48a1

      in reply to
      Cape Town and Los Angeles both should be eagerly seeking the help of the world's foremost experts in desalinization. It's their only long-term hope to keep their cities going.
   2. Bob Jonkman (bobjonkmangreen@gs.jonkman.ca)'s status on Saturday, 10-Feb-2018 16:39:45 EST Bob Jonkman

      in reply to
      There is the issue of #Apartheid. It may be the case that a country that only recently eliminated its policy of apartheid accepting the help of another country that's openly practising apartheid by colonialists against an indigenous population in violation of the 4th Geneva Convention and the UN Declaration of Human Rights is a worse ethical choice than running out of water.
      1. Bryan Lunduke (bryanlunduke@mastodon.rocks)'s status on Saturday, 10-Feb-2018 16:46:33 EST Bryan Lunduke

         in reply to

         @bobjonkmangreen Israel is *not* practicing apartheid. Also the *vast* majority of those that currently live in both the West Bank and Gaza are *not* indigenous (unless you count the huge numbers that were shipped ther by Jordan).

         Making those sorts of statements suggests you support the stated goal of the Palestinian government -- the complete eradication of the Jews. I suggest stating otherwise if that's not the case.

         1. Bob Jonkman (bobjonkmangreen@gs.jonkman.ca)'s status on Saturday, 10-Feb-2018 18:00:57 EST Bob Jonkman

            in reply to
            The government of Israel is occupying and settling territory that was set aside for Palestinians displaced by the creation of Israel in 1948. Palestinians are not allowed to use roads set aside for Israelis. A wall has been erected, not to keep Israelis out of the Palestinian territories, but to keep the Palestinians out of Israel. Palestinian olive groves are demolished for Israeli settlement areas. Palestinian homes are destroyed as collective punishment. https://gs.jonkman.ca/attachment/52058
            1. Bob Jonkman (bobjonkmangreen@gs.jonkman.ca)'s status on Saturday, 10-Feb-2018 18:01:47 EST Bob Jonkman

               in reply to
               Destruction of Palestinian olive farms. /cc @BryanLunduke https://gs.jonkman.ca/attachment/52059
               1. Bob Jonkman (bobjonkmangreen@gs.jonkman.ca)'s status on Saturday, 10-Feb-2018 18:08:05 EST Bob Jonkman

                  in reply to
                  This is #Apartheid -- excluding certain people based on race or religion. The sign reads, in part "This passage is designated for Israelis only. It is forbidden to drive any non-Israeli through this checkpoint!" /cc @BryanLunduke https://gs.jonkman.ca/attachment/52062
                  1. Bob Jonkman (bobjonkmangreen@gs.jonkman.ca)'s status on Saturday, 10-Feb-2018 18:12:32 EST Bob Jonkman

                     in reply to
                     You can listen to the entire presentation at "Audio from Cross Cultures “our FREEDOMS a lively interactive town hall” with @DimitriLascaris, Rehab Nazzal and Wendy Goldsmith" /cc @BryanLunduke https://gs.jonkman.ca/url/52063
                  2. Bryan Lunduke (bryanlunduke@mastodon.rocks)'s status on Saturday, 10-Feb-2018 18:12:55 EST Bryan Lunduke

                     in reply to

                     @bobjonkmangreen "Israeli" denotes citizenship in a nation. Citizens of Israel. There are nearly *identical* signs in almost every country on earth -- there are some borders/areas that cannot be entered without permission from that nation (which, often, is in the form of citizenship or other documented status).

                     That's not anywhere near apartheid. Not at all. That's like calling an "Apple" a "slice of bread". It's nonsense.

            2. Bryan Lunduke (bryanlunduke@mastodon.rocks)'s status on Saturday, 10-Feb-2018 18:14:39 EST Bryan Lunduke

               in reply to

               @bobjonkmangreen There are at least 3 innacuracies in that statement.

               Before we can continue with a discussion, I need an answer to a simple question:

               Do you condemn the Palestinian government's goal of the death of all Jews -- and do you support the right of Israel to exist and to defend its people from violence?

               I need a direct answer to that. Otherwise we cannot continue having any sort of meaningful discussion.

               1. Bob Jonkman (bobjonkmangreen@gs.jonkman.ca)'s status on Saturday, 10-Feb-2018 18:34:22 EST Bob Jonkman

                  in reply to
                  By making that demand we've already lost any hope of meaningful discussion.
                  1. Bryan Lunduke (bryanlunduke@mastodon.rocks)'s status on Saturday, 10-Feb-2018 18:35:46 EST Bryan Lunduke

                     in reply to

                     @bobjonkmangreen So you support the goal of the eradication of the Jewish people and/or feel that Israel has no right to defend itself.

                     Your stance is noted. This is really pretty doggone simple.

                     1. Bob Jonkman (bobjonkmangreen@gs.jonkman.ca)'s status on Saturday, 10-Feb-2018 18:39:47 EST Bob Jonkman

                        in reply to
                        I specifically did not say that. Please don't put words in my mouth.
                        1. Bryan Lunduke (bryanlunduke@mastodon.rocks)'s status on Saturday, 10-Feb-2018 19:15:20 EST Bryan Lunduke

                           in reply to

                           @bobjonkmangreen

                           Here, watch this:

                           I condemn the Palestinian governments stated goal to eradicate the Jews.

                           Easy. Now, your turn.

                     2. Overclocked, Custom Fox (azure@vulpine.club)'s status on Sunday, 11-Feb-2018 16:30:49 EST Overclocked, Custom Fox

                        in reply to

                        @BryanLunduke @bobjonkmangreen With all respect, it's not /exactly/ that simple. I can understand why people might be reticent to say carte blanche that they support a nation's right to defend itself. In principle I think the US has a right to defend itself. I live there. It would be stupid of me not to. However, that doesn't mean I think the US has a right to do all the things it does /in the name/ of defending itself (say, the Iraq War or the number of people it keeps in detention in ICE.)

                        1. Overclocked, Custom Fox (azure@vulpine.club)'s status on Sunday, 11-Feb-2018 16:33:43 EST Overclocked, Custom Fox

                           in reply to

                           @bobjonkmangreen @BryanLunduke Similarly, I think the State of Israel should, in general, defend its people. However, I think many of the ways the Likud party pursues that goal are ineffective or, in some cases, directly undermine the goal and export more suffering than could be justified by the amount of actual safety they provide.

                           1. logen (logen@mastodon.rocks)'s status on Sunday, 11-Feb-2018 23:43:57 EST logen

                              in reply to

                              @Azure @bobjonkmangreen @BryanLunduke

                              The fact that Israel was created in the first place is kinda weird.

                              It's been a while since I've studied the histories, I probably shouldn't comment too far, but it did seem like a move designed to perpetuate war, from what I remember.