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1. ∑ XahLee (xahlee@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 23-Feb-2018 17:41:17 EST ∑ XahLee

   Remember, Korean split, is due to selfish external forces, Russian and USA, particularly USA. Same is the China/Taiwan split.

   Now that USA is is at risk. You wonder, if external forces are more than happy to help you out.

   1. clacke (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 23-Feb-2018 17:45:42 EST clacke

      in reply to
      @xahlee
      
      > selfish external forces, Russian and USA, particularly USA
      
      And yet, the people in ROC and ROC are glad that they don't live in the Soviet-originated states in PRC and DPRK.
      1. ∑ XahLee (xahlee@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 23-Feb-2018 17:48:32 EST ∑ XahLee

         in reply to

         @clacke wait a bit. Then, we can say, the people in commie cali are glad not part of the nazi heartland.

         1. clacke (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 23-Feb-2018 17:54:42 EST clacke

            in reply to
            @xahlee If the ROC and ROK have any fascistic tendencies, it's because of their aggressive neighbors that tried to wipe them out in the 50s.
            1. ∑ XahLee (xahlee@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 23-Feb-2018 17:57:05 EST ∑ XahLee

               in reply to

               @clacke stop thinking about which is good and bad. Stand back and look.

               did not half of american call the other half nazi? which side r u? commie or the nazi?

               and how would a third party, say, china, russia, islam, look at u? Do u want them to help u out?

               1. clacke (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 23-Feb-2018 18:03:20 EST clacke

                  in reply to
                  @xahlee A lot of people are calling each other nazis these days. But even though ROK seems to be becoming more thought-policing lately, they're still a freer country now than in the 80s. Same with ROC, although I've heard fewer stories of repression from there than from ROK.
                  
                  Both nazis and commies are wrong. If they shoot me for marrying outside my race or for trying to run a business, I'm equally dead.
                  1. ∑ XahLee (xahlee@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 23-Feb-2018 18:10:40 EST ∑ XahLee

                     in reply to

                     @clacke wrong or right is not the question. Because war always happened, which side is right depends on which side u r on, who brought u up, where u from.

                     i am pointing out the current political split in usa, and outside forces such as russia and islam involvement, as similar to korea split n china split.

                     The russia islam china, are helping you right now. That is the point.

                     1. clacke (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 23-Feb-2018 18:18:18 EST clacke

                        in reply to
                        @xahlee Russia and Islamists are helping nobody but themselves. China is helping the third world by investing, but are still careful to stay out of any overt military involvement, except for its aggressive maritime border policies.
                        
                        But if the US state wants to take more freedom from its people, whether from the right or from the left, there will be no outsider to step in and help, like the USA did for ROC and ROK. Nobody can outspend the US military, so it's futile.
                        1. ∑ XahLee (xahlee@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 23-Feb-2018 18:22:22 EST ∑ XahLee

                           in reply to

                           @clacke right now, the usa split is perhaps at highest point. Lots violence has occurred. If civil war broke out, be sure outsides r gonna get involved with actual guns. Nuclear guns. Sure, we can wipe out the whole world, not with half of us dead.

                           they are already heavily involved, perhaps covertly. Wasn't there millions of russian bots, or islam owns twitter? or cry for more islam immigration to help voting?

                           1. ∑ XahLee (xahlee@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 23-Feb-2018 18:28:44 EST ∑ XahLee

                              in reply to

                              @clacke when we exert force on others, we see help and justice.

                              when we have internal split, hate each other, outsiders are thinking exactly the same, help and justice.

                              any family, clan, nation, always have internal problems now and then. United We Stand, is the common keyword, regardless of ideology. The view point can be swapped.

                              1. ∑ XahLee (xahlee@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 23-Feb-2018 18:32:19 EST ∑ XahLee

                                 in reply to

                                 @clacke to see that US involvement in splitting Korea and China, as justice and right, is common, to American.

                                 but we should not fail to see outsiders are thinking exactly the same when usa is on the verge of split.

                                 1. clacke (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 23-Feb-2018 19:22:15 EST clacke

                                    in reply to
                                    @xahlee The split in the USA is nowhere near the level of the Cold War split in the world.
                                    
                                    I'm not an American, but if I were, or if I were a citizen of any of the other countries who fought for the UN troops in Korea, I would be happy that thanks to my country's contribution, millions of people were saved from decades of suffering. The situation in DPRK cannot be described in clear enough terms. It's a prison the size of a country.
                                    
                                    Even if we pretend that the ROK would have been equally bad until the 80s, that's still 2-3 decades of freedom to leave the country, access to food, access to modern technology, that South Koreans have had, and North Koreans have been denied.
                                    
                                    You talk as if splitting Korea was bad. If the alternative was a unified Juche Korea, I don't see have that alternative would have been even morally justified by these external parties.
                                    
                                    As for China, the differences are less drastic, especially today. The Chinese generally have access to food, education and modern comforts. But the millions who died in starvation and persecution did not have the luxury to say there is no right and wrong. And the over one million who fled to Hong Kong, preferring slums and the rule of triads to the alternative across the border, made their views on right and wrong clear. The regime on Taiwan, though repressive, corrupt and violent, still saw two million flee there for a better life.
                                    
                                    The external forces in China and Korea acted for their own purposes, of course. It was part of a global game of power. But I find it very hard to say that the splits were bad, if the alternative was the Americans leaving. It would have been better if both Soviets and Americans would have left the countries alone to develop on their own terms, but I don't see how "particularly the USA" split the countries. Mao and Kim received training and military support from Moscow, and it was their actions that created the splits.
                                    1. ∑ XahLee (xahlee@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 23-Feb-2018 20:23:08 EST ∑ XahLee

                                       in reply to

                                       @clacke i see you are cherry picking and theorize thing after the fact.

                                       if korea did not split, the North today may not be bad like that. Maybe the whole Korea will be prosperous.

                                       same with China/Taiwan split. Taiwan was prosperous, and china was pretty bad like N Korea today, but now shanghai is more expensive and rich than New York, and they sending space stations.

                                       1. ∑ XahLee (xahlee@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 23-Feb-2018 20:26:38 EST ∑ XahLee

                                          in reply to

                                          @clacke i was born in taiwan, from parents from china. My dad has told me, it is USA the scum, that stopped we chinese being unified country. (and us soldiers raping in taiwan etc)

                                          you have to see that point. Because, the billions of chinese, or vast majority , think that way too. You don't because you are not Chinese.

                                          it's very simple point. Outsiders, usually, do what they can to benefit themselves. If one agree, then one must see that too, in usa hand in korea split and china split.

                                          1. clacke (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2018 04:00:30 EST clacke

                                             in reply to
                                             @xahlee And yet he moved to Taiwan and then the US. I'm not saying that the US didn't have its own motives, or that war and occupation isn't terrible, or that soldiers aren't liable for abuses they commit. But your perspective seems to leave the CPC blameless, when that is far from the case.
                                             1. ∑ XahLee (xahlee@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2018 04:09:59 EST ∑ XahLee

                                                in reply to

                                                @clacke
                                                my dad escaped to taiwan, because his dad (my grand dad) is some sort of high ranked sordier of the KMT, the party fighting the communist. We "escaped" to taiwan.

                                                and taiwan today, since 2000s, have gone into what usa is experiencing now with the sjw. With some of the "natives" minority claiming massacre etc. then their Progressive Party president turns out r involved in high corruption and now in jail...

                                                1. ∑ XahLee (xahlee@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2018 04:11:22 EST ∑ XahLee

                                                   in reply to

                                                   @clacke and we are not even getting into American history of entirely wiping out the native Americans, which is the biggest genocide in human history.

                                                   1. ∑ XahLee (xahlee@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2018 04:18:12 EST ∑ XahLee

                                                      in reply to

                                                      @clacke but maybe, American wiping out the red skin is justified, because, we brought them god, technology, rid of their superstition.

                                                      right?

                                                      and imported blacks from Africa by the shiploads and heroically freed them.

                                                      there is however, one way, to judge right and wrong. That is, those who live and let live.

                                                      US's involvement in korea, vietnam, and since, and iraq war, was never about that.

                                                      1. ∑ XahLee (xahlee@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2018 04:19:13 EST ∑ XahLee

                                                         in reply to

                                                         @clacke so from what i see, your responses, is very typical of American (or white men), before the rise of the worse, the sjw.

                                                         1. ∑ XahLee (xahlee@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2018 04:22:45 EST ∑ XahLee

                                                            in reply to

                                                            @clacke when another nation is practicing cruelty or complete fucked (such as china, cultural revolution period), whether another country gets involved (such as us, the usa), is a good question. I don't think there's right answer.

                                                            but i think what's missing in typical american mind, is a complete blank of other side's point of view. That view is what i was trying to say in the beginning of the post. It just won't fly. In most other places or with other people, i'd be called a troll or ban'd.

                                                   2. clacke (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2018 04:25:14 EST clacke

                                                      in reply to
                                                      @xahlee No, because I don't see how that answers the question of whether Korea being split instead of a unified dictatorship is a bad thing.
                                                      1. ∑ XahLee (xahlee@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2018 04:41:31 EST ∑ XahLee

                                                         in reply to

                                                         @clacke about Korea split, my point is to not judge on what's wrong, but look at aggression from one to another.

                                                         but your view has been mostly to judge whether the bad warranted us involvement.

                                                         i understand your perspective. That is common western perspective. What am saying, is to accept, that there's a view point, where judgement is not considered, but only aggression of one to other.

                                                         1. clacke (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2018 04:59:22 EST clacke

                                                            in reply to
                                                            @xahlee North Korea didn't have to attack South Korea. East Germany never attacked West Germany, and so there was no German War in the 1950s. It was the inability of the US side and the Soviet side to agree on the terms of a unified Korea that created the split. It was the politics of China and the Soviet Union that escalated the conflict.
                                       2. clacke (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2018 03:54:45 EST clacke

                                          in reply to
                                          @xahlee Yes. China has largely recovered from hell, whereas North Korea hasn't. Maybe the dynasty vs party rule has something to do with it. In North Korea the old guard dying off doesn't help, even for two generations. China started improving as soon as Mao went away.
                                          
                                          I don't know that I'm theorizing after the fact. The USA's reasons for engaging in Korea were partly that communism is dreadful, and it hasn't been proven wrong on that point.
                                          
                                          China is improving because Deng dismantled Communism As We Know It.
                                          1. ∑ XahLee (xahlee@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2018 04:27:33 EST ∑ XahLee

                                             in reply to

                                             @clacke
                                             you probably knew,
                                             Chomsky is a leading US critic, holding the view that usa after WW2 is basically ruthless empire, getting its hands in wherever there's benefit. he wrote lots books. He's 80 or something now, very old, but still have youtube vid or article now and then.

                                             do you read him? what do you think?

                                             1. clacke (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2018 04:32:35 EST clacke

                                                in reply to
                                                @xahlee I just think it's possible to say that the same country can be guilty of invasion, oppression and genocide and still not being automatically wrong in everything it does.
                                                
                                                Killing and displacing the pre-existing nations in North America was horrible, but so was Kim's invasion of Korea, and Mao's invasion of China.
                                                
                                                I can even say this and *still* think that Dr. Sun wasn't necessarily right in revolting against the Qing and taking part in creating the state that Mao crushed.
                                                1. ∑ XahLee (xahlee@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2018 04:36:37 EST ∑ XahLee

                                                   in reply to

                                                   @clacke ... Mao was good. He began very good, winning people's hearts, mostly farmers or poor people, peasants, that's how he rose. But after WWII and Chinese Civil War ended, he became very bad. The millions of deaths, cultural revolution, is due to him, as side effect of his political struggle. The deaths are mostly due to famine, which he resulted.

                                                   that's afaik from what i read, my interpretation. I never been to china myself.

                                                   1. clacke (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2018 04:43:29 EST clacke

                                                      in reply to
                                                      @xahlee It seems we agree on the facts, yet disagree on the conclusion.
                                                      
                                                      I've been to Wuhan and seen their museums of the revolution. It's crazy how they even glorify the Taiping Rebellion, the most deadly deadly domestic conflict ever, simply because it weakened the Qing state.
                                                      
                                                      That said, the historical museum in Taipei has some pretty uncritical views of the Generalissimo as well.
                                                      1. ∑ XahLee (xahlee@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2018 04:57:28 EST ∑ XahLee

                                                         in reply to

                                                         @clacke
                                                         taiping rebellion, the leader is brother of jesus.

                                                         Taiping Rebellion Poem: Kill the Vicious and Keep the Righteous Poem
                                                         http://wordyenglish.com/poem/taiping.html

                                                         ^_^

                                                         1. clacke (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2018 05:10:47 EST clacke

                                                            in reply to
                                                            @xahlee If we murder all the bad guys, only nice guys will be left! That logic has never failed.
                                          2. ∑ XahLee (xahlee@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2018 04:33:14 EST ∑ XahLee

                                             in reply to

                                             @clacke Deng began capitalism in china, that brought chinese prosperity. But the political system is still strictly lead by the communist party and they r strict about that.

                                             taiwan, since the Nationalist arrived (and pretty soon i was born there), is absolute authoritarian (with us backing and US fleet in Taiwan Straight), dictatorship. Until in 1970s or so the taiwan Progresive Party thwart that... and it turned into the sjw kinda situtaion.

                                 2. clacke (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 23-Feb-2018 19:28:58 EST clacke

                                    in reply to
                                    @xahlee I think it would be good for the USA and for the world if the USA split in several pieces. But I don't see it happening any decade soon. When it does happen, I hope it's a slow and civil process, not a sudden flame of intense conflict.
                                    1. ∑ XahLee (xahlee@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 23-Feb-2018 20:15:12 EST ∑ XahLee

                                       in reply to

                                       @clacke and who knows what might happen.

                                       i haven't thought about this much, but instinctively, i wish no split. Am American.

                                       (china/taiwan is my birth mom, usa is my teats mom. The sjw scums in usa, is fermenting racial problems, and it is a problem, because half of american are immigrants.)