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  1. Adam (inkslinger@mastodon.club)'s status on Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:10:34 EST Adam Adam

    I'm thinking about a book a read a few months back, called Fired Up About Capitalism (which is actually a kinda anti-capitalist book). The article below is by the author and presents a very simplified version of the book's argument.

    Although it isn't platonic ideal of a political and economic structure, I think it is a worth goal.

    https://firedupbooks.wordpress.com/2017/10/18/why-cant-i-vote-for-my-boss-and-other-heretical-thoughts/

    In conversation Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:10:34 EST from mastodon.club permalink
    1. Adam (inkslinger@mastodon.club)'s status on Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:12:21 EST Adam Adam
      in reply to

      It's radical enough to significantly improve the lives of almost everyone, but still similar enough to our current systems that it wouldn't be relatively easy to get people to buy-in (easier than true socialism or full communism, at least). It's basically the Nordic social democratic model on steroids, but with way more worker co-ops, to allow for more democracy in the workplace.

      In conversation Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:12:21 EST from mastodon.club permalink
      1. Adam (inkslinger@mastodon.club)'s status on Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:14:29 EST Adam Adam
        in reply to

        In theory, it could be achieved through electoral politics.

        I think there is an appetite for some of the ideas proposed, but more people need to be exposed to the ideas. I don't think enough people realize there are ways of structuring work so it has fewer (or no) hierarchies, even within capitalism.

        In conversation Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:14:29 EST from mastodon.club permalink
        1. Adam (inkslinger@mastodon.club)'s status on Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:16:45 EST Adam Adam
          in reply to

          The proposed model does still seem to suffer from the problem of social democracy more generally, which is that it still relies heavily on imperialism and exploitation of cheap labour in the developing world, but as a starting point to a more just world, maybe it could work, as long as we don't view it as the end of the journey.

          In conversation Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:16:45 EST from mastodon.club permalink
          1. Adam (inkslinger@mastodon.club)'s status on Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:17:54 EST Adam Adam
            in reply to

            Now if only there was a political party in Canada that was willing to push the envelope and move in that direction. The NDP is the closest thing among the major parties, but they're still to the right of the ideas in the book.

            In conversation Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:17:54 EST from mastodon.club permalink
            1. Adam (inkslinger@mastodon.club)'s status on Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:27:06 EST Adam Adam
              in reply to

              That said, if we ever do get meaningful electoral reform in this country, I suspect the NDP establishment will be more willing to be as openly leftist as most of the rank and file members want them to be. And the Green Party would have a greater shot at success, which could also move things in the right direction.

              In conversation Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:27:06 EST from mastodon.club permalink
              1. Adam (inkslinger@mastodon.club)'s status on Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:28:07 EST Adam Adam
                in reply to

                (or maybe not, since the Green Party of Canada is weird in that it's sometimes quite leftist and other times quite conservative, despite being an environmentalist party)

                In conversation Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:28:07 EST from mastodon.club permalink
                1. Bob Jonkman (bobjonkmangreen@gs.jonkman.ca)'s status on Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:32:05 EST Bob Jonkman Bob Jonkman
                  in reply to
                  The Green Party, both federally and provincially, identifies itself as "Socially progressive, fiscally conservative". So they're in favour of all the good leftist things, without bankrupting the economy to pay for it.
                  In conversation Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:32:05 EST from web permalink
                  1. Bob Jonkman (bobjonkmangreen@gs.jonkman.ca)'s status on Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:33:14 EST Bob Jonkman Bob Jonkman
                    in reply to
                    Gonna have to read that link you posted. I suspect there may already be a "major party" willing to push the envelope.
                    In conversation Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:33:14 EST from web permalink
                  2. Adam (inkslinger@mastodon.club)'s status on Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:39:18 EST Adam Adam
                    in reply to

                    @bobjonkmangreen I mean, the PC party (in the places it still exists) describes itself that way, too.

                    It tends to be one of those terms that sounds good but doesn't really mean much -- or at least is so flexible as to mean whatever you want it to mean.

                    (It also depends on what you consider "all the good leftist things.")

                    In conversation Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:39:18 EST from mastodon.club permalink
                    1. Adam (inkslinger@mastodon.club)'s status on Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:41:32 EST Adam Adam
                      in reply to

                      @bobjonkmangreen Now, having said that, the Green Party is far more grassroots than the NDP, so ordinary members can have greater influence on policy. I'm not sure how meaningful that is when they only have one MP, and whether they'd maintain that internal democracy if they started gaining more power is anyone's guess since it's purely hypothetical at this point, but it is nice to see a sort of bottom-up party that is at least nominally left of centre.

                      In conversation Friday, 09-Mar-2018 15:41:32 EST from mastodon.club permalink
                      1. Bob Jonkman (bobjonkmangreen@gs.jonkman.ca)'s status on Friday, 09-Mar-2018 16:06:25 EST Bob Jonkman Bob Jonkman
                        in reply to
                        I've seen the policy sausage being made, and participated in the sausage-making. Yes, the grass-roots members can introduce motions, which get turned into policy at bi-annual general conventions. But that's true for other parties as well. Perhaps not in members introducing motions, but certainly members voting on party policies. The best way to be influential in government is to participate in a party to craft the policies that become legislation.
                        In conversation Friday, 09-Mar-2018 16:06:25 EST from web permalink
                        1. Bob Jonkman (bobjonkmangreen@gs.jonkman.ca)'s status on Friday, 09-Mar-2018 16:07:42 EST Bob Jonkman Bob Jonkman
                          in reply to
                          Oh, and the "fiscally conservative" part means having a fully-costed policy platform. No magic money, no handwaving. The Green Party is usually the first party to publish its platform, with full accounting for sources of revenue.
                          In conversation Friday, 09-Mar-2018 16:07:42 EST from web permalink
                        2. Adam (inkslinger@mastodon.club)'s status on Friday, 09-Mar-2018 16:12:11 EST Adam Adam
                          in reply to

                          @bobjonkmangreen Other parties follow similar methods, but I've noticed the conventions are often organized in such as way as to make it much more likely that certain policies will be voted on and others will be left to lie in limbo for two years until the next convention...when they will also probably not make it to the convention floor.

                          In conversation Friday, 09-Mar-2018 16:12:11 EST from mastodon.club permalink
                          1. Adam (inkslinger@mastodon.club)'s status on Friday, 09-Mar-2018 16:14:38 EST Adam Adam
                            in reply to

                            @bobjonkmangreen And, of course, parties will frequently ignore their own policies when campaigning, because they don't think they can win. That's pragmatic, I guess, but also deeply cynical.

                            But, yes, getting involved with a party can be a good tactic. I am frequently cynical about electoral politics -- and almost almost cynical about internal party politics -- but I still get involved because it's one of the main tools available to influence formal policy changes.

                            In conversation Friday, 09-Mar-2018 16:14:38 EST from mastodon.club permalink
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