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1. Dave Morriss (perloid@mastodon.sdf.org)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 04:56:22 EDT Dave Morriss

   @clacke @liaizon Thank you; most interesting. I'm (possibly unreasonably) irritated by weird language trends, probably because I'm old and was taught this stuff in a very formal way. For example, I keep hearing "hone in", instead of "home in" at the moment. What does "sharpen in" actually mean? I'm currently planning an episode on plurals - criterion/criteria, thesis/theses, nebula/nebulae, etc.

   1. Jason_Dodd (jasondodd@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 05:07:24 EDT Jason_Dodd

      in reply to

      @perloid @clacke @liaizon The way I look at is language changes with the times. And it should.

      The general rate of change is increasing. I'll be disappointed if language doesn't keep up.

      1. Dave Morriss (perloid@mastodon.sdf.org)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 05:12:27 EDT Dave Morriss

         in reply to

         @Jason_Dodd @clacke @liaizon I agree 100%. Neologisms are vital (which is how I interpret your comment). However, modifications which derive from mistakes, misunderstandings, inability to spell, and so on are something I believe we should try to fix. For example, the use of "queue" when the writer meant "cue", which I see a lot, adds nothing to the language and is confusing to non-native speakers.

         1. Jason_Dodd (jasondodd@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 05:19:10 EDT Jason_Dodd

            in reply to

            @perloid @clacke @liaizon I mostly agree. However, there are plenty of times where I think the mistake is better.

            In the end, language will change even to embrace mistakes. As I age and work more and more with people from all over the world speaking many different native languages, I roll with the paunches :) and try to accept the spirit rather than letter of the thing being said. Sometimes the mistakes do matter and I have to get clarification. I will make corrections if a safe means presents.

            1. Dave Morriss (perloid@mastodon.sdf.org)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 05:27:05 EDT Dave Morriss

               in reply to

               @Jason_Dodd @clacke @liaizon Similar experiences here (time spent in Singapore and Indonesia for example), and yes, it's not helpful to be the person ranting about English misuse, but as you say, sometimes the mistakes matter. Often they are the result of lack of knowledge, and being one who likes to explain things, I sometimes get involved.

               1. Jason_Dodd (jasondodd@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 05:34:12 EDT Jason_Dodd

                  in reply to

                  @perloid @clacke @liaizon To be fair, English is bollocks. I keep hoping that some of these mistakes will turn into corrections that stick. For example, why have except and accept. Pick words that don't sound so much alike.

                  There are many such things. Maybe the fact that people make so many mistakes highlights the fact that English has tons of bugs that need to be fixed.

                  Where do you file bug reports for Standard English?

                  1. Dave Morriss (perloid@mastodon.sdf.org)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 05:43:27 EDT Dave Morriss

                     in reply to

                     @Jason_Dodd @clacke @liaizon Yes. I sympathise. I have helped non-native speakers to grasp English weirdnesses (what does "notwithstanding" mean asked my Norwegian neighbour; is it something to do with sitting down?). I quite like English though. I trained as a Biologist, and that subject is complex and the way things are is often illogical (due to evolution usually) - just like English!

                  2. Jason_Dodd (jasondodd@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 07:58:36 EDT Jason_Dodd

                     in reply to

                     @perloid @clacke @liaizon What English needs is some good UX design :)

                     1. Jason_Dodd (jasondodd@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 08:19:55 EDT Jason_Dodd

                        in reply to

                        @perloid @clacke @liaizon Darn this thread for making me think of language over breakfast!!

                        It occurred to me that it must be an old thought by now but it really is how living things, change/evolve. Mistakes/mutations happen and the ones that look, sound, or function better stick. Sometimes the old version is replaced. Sometimes it's forked.

                        1. Dave Morriss (perloid@mastodon.sdf.org)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 08:42:16 EDT Dave Morriss

                           in reply to

                           @Jason_Dodd @clacke @liaizon It's what I was taught is the mechanism underlying evolution: natural selection. The "fittest" (i.e the variations most fitted to current conditions) have an advantage because they get more food, escape predators better, etc. When it comes to language though it's hard to see what, other than whim or fashion, determines what is "fittest". I propose that old curmudgeons like me should be tasked with culling the less well-adapted. 😃

                           1. Jason_Dodd (jasondodd@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 08:51:59 EDT Jason_Dodd

                              in reply to

                              @perloid @clacke @liaizon lol. Sometimes it's the curmudgeons that are culled.

                              In nature some adaptations seem to be due to looking or sounding better. Isn't that similar? I submit that if something also seems to fit because of the unique environment, it might also have an advantage and survive in that community even it it doesn't supplant the original.

                              1. Dave Morriss (perloid@mastodon.sdf.org)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 08:59:09 EDT Dave Morriss

                                 in reply to

                                 @Jason_Dodd @clacke @liaizon
                                 > Sometimes it's the curmudgeons that are culled.
                                 That's called natural wastage!
                                 > looking or sounding better
                                 That's often sexual selection; the sort of process that produced peacocks and lyre birds. It can lead to some bizarre changes.
                                 > unique environment
                                 Yes, environments change, and species adapt. Over evolutionary time an "original" form can be lost since it's no longer "fitted" (or "adapted")

                           2. Jason_Dodd (jasondodd@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 08:54:18 EDT Jason_Dodd

                              in reply to

                              @perloid @clacke @liaizon Just for Dave: I'm curious how you view similar mistakes that were made in the past but became standard. If the mistake was made before your time, does is have more standing?

                              1. Dave Morriss (perloid@mastodon.sdf.org)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 09:12:13 EDT Dave Morriss

                                 in reply to

                                 @Jason_Dodd @clacke @liaizon Good question. Take "nice"; its meaning has changed from fine and precise in the early 1900's and before to (insipidly) pleasant now. Not a mistake as such, I admit. I'm not sure what process caused that change in fact.
                                 If it's an historical change, then it's not capable of being reverted I guess. If it's an ongoing change and it seems to be senseless then why not try and correct it? For example "pundit" is apparently morphing to "pundant", which makes no sense!

                                 1. Jason_Dodd (jasondodd@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 09:17:07 EDT Jason_Dodd

                                    in reply to

                                    @perloid @clacke @liaizon Maybe I should do an episode on English mistakes I prefer over standard.

                                    1. Dave Morriss (perloid@mastodon.sdf.org)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 09:22:47 EDT Dave Morriss

                                       in reply to

                                       @Jason_Dodd @clacke @liaizon Go for it!

   2. Jason_Dodd (jasondodd@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 05:24:42 EDT Jason_Dodd

      in reply to

      @perloid @clacke @liaizon Perhaps "hone in" might make more sense in some cases. Is it being used as "dial in" would be? "Sharpen in", too.

      I think it's perfectly fine as described in the link below. Why shouldn't this kind of evolution be ok even if started because someone mistook similar sounding words?

      https://grammarist.com/eggcorns/home-in-hone-in/

      1. Jason_Dodd (jasondodd@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 05:29:01 EDT Jason_Dodd

         in reply to

         @perloid @clacke @liaizon I say all of the above living in the place credited for popularizing the term 'irrigardless'. Indiana.

         Was growing increasingly irritated by how many people here use the term but got used to it. I couple months ago, an episode of 'grammar girl' tells me this area popularized this mistake! Woe is me.

         1. Dave Morriss (perloid@mastodon.sdf.org)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 05:37:35 EDT Dave Morriss

            in reply to

            @Jason_Dodd @clacke @liaizon Ah "populari(s,z)ation"! That's simply saying that nobody pointed out that an incorrect usage was a mistake, and more and more people followed the wrong usage. It's fashion! It's what's trendy and modern! As one who is not fashionable, trendy, modern, or anything related - pshaw! 😉

            1. Jason_Dodd (jasondodd@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 05:47:33 EDT Jason_Dodd

               in reply to

               @perloid @clacke @liaizon Maybe it's because someone pointed out the mistake, which was met with ideas similar to, "Someone made the tools and rules. I appreciate the tools. However, I'll do as a see fit with the tools regardless of the rules. Thank you very much".

               Followed up with a link to one of the HPR episodes discussing what it means to be a hacker.

            2. ˗ˏˋ wakest ˎˊ˗ (liaizon@social.wake.st)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 05:39:20 EDT ˗ˏˋ wakest ˎˊ˗

               in reply to

               @perloid @Jason_Dodd @clacke by ending your sentence with a emoji you showed that you are indeed following trend and fashion in the adaption of the English language!

      2. Dave Morriss (perloid@mastodon.sdf.org)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 05:32:23 EDT Dave Morriss

         in reply to

         @Jason_Dodd @clacke @liaizon In my experience "hone in" is being used by mistake. The intention is to say that by a process of refinement or iteration an answer has been reached. The image using "home in" is like a homing pigeon circling to find its roost. On the other hand "sharpen in" doesn't offer such a picture. When has anyone ever "sharpened in" a knife? I can see the image of narrowing something to a point, but then you wouldn't include "in" would you?

         1. Jason_Dodd (jasondodd@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 05:41:08 EDT Jason_Dodd

            in reply to

            @perloid @clacke @liaizon In a prior life I was a machinist. I used 'hone in' exactly like this. We'd have shaping processes with large stones. Would call it honing in when trying to use that process to get to a certain size.

            It might well be that even that was a mistake. Nevertheless, hone in seemed more appropriate than home in to us.

            1. Dave Morriss (perloid@mastodon.sdf.org)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 05:48:46 EDT Dave Morriss

               in reply to

               @Jason_Dodd @clacke @liaizon Interesting. Quite specialised though, and possibly a localised use of words that perhaps fitted the context well, but didn't necessarily transfer as well outside it. Still, I doubt the majority of "hone-in-ers" have your image in mind and would probably vote for the pigeon in a popularity contest!

               1. Jason_Dodd (jasondodd@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 05:57:10 EDT Jason_Dodd

                  in reply to

                  @perloid @clacke @liaizon Perhaps. But do you completely discount this explanation from Merriam-Webster?

                  " or it may have developed simply because of the influence of hone, with perhaps an underlying sense that "honing" figuratively involves a narrowing or sharpening of focus"

                  1. Jason_Dodd (jasondodd@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 06:03:02 EDT Jason_Dodd

                     in reply to

                     @perloid @clacke @liaizon These conversations in the hacker community always leads me to think about how we use computer languages and even hardware in ways "they" didn't intend and may not like.

                     :)

                     For example, violating best practices when speed is of the essence.

                     1. Jason_Dodd (jasondodd@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 06:03:58 EDT Jason_Dodd

                        in reply to

                        @perloid @clacke @liaizon No worries, I do and will always listen to every HPR episode.

                        And quite enjoy the ones on spoken language.

                        1. Jason_Dodd (jasondodd@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 06:13:53 EDT Jason_Dodd

                           in reply to

                           @perloid @clacke @liaizon In a former life I was also an avid chess player. Was taught that masters must truly understand the principles of good chess. Grandmasters must also truly understand when to break those rules.

                     2. Dave Morriss (perloid@mastodon.sdf.org)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 06:26:22 EDT Dave Morriss

                        in reply to

                        @Jason_Dodd @clacke @liaizon Haha! Good point. I write Perl a lot (I'm reluctant to learn anything else) as well as Bash, and have a syntax checker for each in my editor. Mostly they are useful but the times when I want to write a quick and dirty script and get nagged all the time drives me nuts. I'd rather not be a human syntax checker on reflection!

                     3. Jason_Dodd (jasondodd@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 06:30:20 EDT Jason_Dodd

                        in reply to

                        @perloid @clacke @liaizon I should add that we tend to be proud of that fact.

                        I suppose the youth and poets are the hackers of language.

                        OG hackers.

                  2. Dave Morriss (perloid@mastodon.sdf.org)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 06:17:40 EDT Dave Morriss

                     in reply to

                     @Jason_Dodd @clacke @liaizon I can see this, but note they didn't say "narrowing in" or "sharpening in". The use of "hone" instead of "home" seems more like the use of a similar-sounding word in error. I'd prefer it if we used "home in" and "hone" interchangeably.

                     1. Jason_Dodd (jasondodd@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jul-2019 06:24:07 EDT Jason_Dodd

                        in reply to

                        @perloid @clacke @liaizon I see. Perhaps that might be part of the difference of opinion. I use 'hone" instead of "dial", not "home".

                        I use "dial" to mean tuning something but "dial in" when referring to fine tuning. Likewise, I use "honing" to mean making sharp. And "honing in" to mean making sharp to some specification.

                        "Homing" or "home in" doesn't seem to fit as well to me.