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1. lnxw48a1 (lnxw48a1@nu.federati.net)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Sep-2023 14:55:34 EDT lnxw48a1
   > it's okay when NATO does it? https://gnusocial.net/notice/15644053
   
   You know, I thought since the end of the USSR that NATO should not exist any longer. The series of invasions from #Russia into #Ukraine convinced me that I was wrong. That's the difference between us.
   
   You don't seem to learn from what happens in the world around us. In your mind, the US and Israel are "the axis of evil" and everyone else is oppressed by them. So allowing Ukraine to choose its own route isn't on your radar so long as that involves them resisting Russia's decision to choose for them.
   
   > I just find it ironic that usnato expansion is celebrated while russia expansion is condemned. it's not like ukraine would be better off under either one. https://gnusocial.net/notice/15645832
   
   Tell that to the people who were living there from 2014 onwards. Or, you know, to those who still remember the Holodomor--an intentionally engineered famine targeted at Ukraine and certain other regions. After Ukrainians died, the USSR moved Russians into Ukraine to take it over, and that's part of why the proxy rebellions in Luhansk and Donestk (liberally seeded with PMC Wagner mercenaries from the beginning) could happen.
   
   > as the population and the government leaned towards an approximation with Russia https://gnusocial.net/notice/15646839
   
   *Sigh* Will you wake up and do a little reading outside of your normal propaganda sources?
   
   1. The people indicate to the government in 2004 that they want to move toward the European Union. The government doesn't listen, so they have the Orange Revolution. This is well documented. See for example https://html.duckduckgo.com/html?q=ukraine+orange+revolution+causes&t=lmddgtfy&kae=-1 and https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/how-modern-ukraine-was-made-on-maidan/
   
   2. In 2014, a leader ignores this and goes to Russia to try to move Ukraine deeper into the Russian orbit, leading to the EuroMaidan revolution. At this point, Russia fears the loss of its naval base at Sevastopol, so they invade Crimea and launch ersatz rebellions in Luhansk and Donetsk. https://html.duckduckgo.com/html?q=ukraine+maidan+revolution+causes&t=lmddgtfy&kae=-1
   
   3. In 2022, the rebellious oblasts have not achieved the goals that were set, so Russia invades again, hoping to forcibly pull the whole country into their orbit. The invasion does not achieve anywhere near its expected objectives in the expected time frame.
   
   4. In response, the RT propaganda repeaters on the right-wing start openly cheering anything positive for Russia, while the blame-the-US-first brigade on the extreme left do the same while pretending they just want both sides to leave Ukraine alone. <-- You are here.
   
   I mean, I understand. You're a fanatic. And no inconvenient facts about the impact on people or the choices those people made are going to convince you that this isn't secretly the US and Russia dividing up Ukraine the way the Nazis and the USSR divided Poland.
   
   The only thing I can hope is that you and those who think like you are not placed in a position where they get to enforce their views upon the people in that country. (And no, since you're likely to say the same to me, I don't want to force _my_ views on them either. I couldn't have wanted them to join "USNATO", as I didn't want NATO to exist.)
   
   > I support Ukraine, the land of my mother's parents, not Russia's nor USNato's rule over it. https://gnusocial.net/notice/15649111
   
   You support them so long as their decisions align with your twisted and distorted views. If they decide (as they did) that they want to join the European Union and align with Western Europe, you suddenly decide that they're not deciding for themselves, they are being deceived by USNato.
   
   Well, gee, they have a neighbor who says they don't deserve their own nation, who has murdered thousands (some reports say up to a million) of their ancestors via starvation, who has colonized their lands with its own people, and who has at times banned their language and culture. That neighbor has definitely attempted over the past year to take away their nation and their ability to make their own choices. I can understand why they'd rather join someone else's group.
   
   > you seem to assume USNato's protection comes at no cost in sovereignty, without realizing it's not unlike mafia protection.
   "nice country you got there. t'would be a shame if Russia were to invade it. surely you wouldn't be able to defend yourself unless you were to join our empire, so why don't you?" https://gnusocial.net/notice/15649296
   
   Who asked to join NATO years ago and who still hasn't approved the application? Doesn't the news tell you anything?
   
   Yes, joining a military alliance (NATO), like joining an economic and political one (EU), comes with some requirements. If you'll recall, the UK left the EU ("Brexit") partly because of some of the requirements. And remember that France spent years where their NATO participation was limited to political liasing, so it isn't as much sovereignty loss as one might expect. How much did their membership in CIS cost them in sovereignty? How much did having Russian gas infrastructure integrated into their nation cost them in sovereignty?
   
   You talk a lot about how joining either giant empire costs sovereignty, but you don't really talk about whether they have a real choice that will be respected to go a fully independent route. I don't believe Russia will respect such a choice, as they haven't respected their neighbor's choices so far.
   1. Alexandre Oliva (moved to @lxo@gnusocial.jp) (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Wednesday, 13-Sep-2023 01:07:52 EDT Alexandre Oliva (moved to @lxo@gnusocial.jp)

      in reply to
      thanks for your feedback. I hear you. I have indeed been unfair in my representation of Ukrainian people's disposition towards Russia, and failed to take note of some evil Russian moves. I'll give you that.
      
      but really, the moves you pointed out by evil Russian leaders aren't different from moves I've seen from evil USian leaders, and their foreign victims suffered just as unfortunate consequences. why do I feel that some people think it's wrong to oppose such moves, even when they're made by their favorite plutocrat, or by a flag they support? and that if I call such moves out, that must be because I support opposite move. is it so hard to understand that I support neither evil move?
      
      now, yeah, your point that the empires wouldn't have allowed Ukraine to choose freely is a good wait to put what I've been trying to say, that Ukraine has already lost its sovereignty, no matter who wins the proxy war. note it's not me who gets to be arbiter on whether Ukraine's choices are legitimate or reasonable. it should be Ukraine themselves. not me, not you, not either empire either.