Notices by Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz), page 177

@popefucker @enkiv2 @natecull my original point was that if you make a digital clone of yourself, killing yourself in the process, you won't wake up looking out of its senses. You just won't wake up. From your POV, there will be no experiential difference between that and just killing yourself. Yes, there will still be a facsimile of you in the world, but you won't be there, for the same reason you wouldn't wake up looking out the eyes of a biological clone.

@popefucker @enkiv2 @natecull of you want to continue, let's pull back from the irresolvable metaphysical speculation, and go back to the what we're actually discussing; the transhumanism concept of "uploading" a mind.

@popefucker @enkiv2 @natecull I'm lost. How can you be a hard materialist if you don't believe space/time is real? Where does all this material you believe in exist? I'm starting to think you're just playing devil's advocate, which is fine, until you start changing your base assumptions with every post. Then it just gets frustrating, and stops being fun.

@bhaugen @mlg @xj9 @lynnfoster oh for sure. Even before any actual measuring takes place, its obvious that constantly mining carbon and minerals out of the soil in the form of produce (or animal feed), and dumping it into waterways or the ocean (or anywhere that isn't returning it to the soil), will eventually deplete the soil of both, unless you mine it from somewhere else (eg bird shit) and dump it into the soil ("fertilizer"). Compost toilets make obvious sense.

I'm curious about how #Article13 will affect #PeerTube. Will each instance be evaluated to see if it's "small" or "big", or will it be regulated as a single "platform"? If it's the latter, who will they go after to install the copyright filters?

@cerret budgies on tiny skateboards, this is what social media is all about ;-)

@fdroidorg btw I was trying to update because #Yalp is telling me there are updates available on the Play store for some apps I installed using F-Droid, but when I go to the updates tab in F-Droid, there are no updates available.

@fdroidorg the .APK on your homepage appears to be out-of-date. I had 1.4, then tried manually updating using the .APK, only to find that actually downgraded me to 1.3.1. F-Droid then updated itself back to 1.4, so no big deal, but I just thought I'd point it out, in case updating the .APK on the homepage had been overlooked.

@popefucker @enkiv2 @natecull look, if you want to change the working definitions of the words we've established, then we're not going to be able to have a coherent discussion. I've enjoyed this exchange, but I think I'm going to leave it there and have some dinner. Another time? :)

@popefucker @enkiv2 @natecull To be materially real, an object must exist in space/time, right? So where (and when) is a square? Not a *representation* of a square in the form of other materials, but the square itself.

@popefucker @enkiv2 @natecull we established that "consciousness", for the purpose of this discussion, was a POV. Whether you're awake, asleep or in a coma, there is still a consciousness, by that definition. When you are dead, there isn't. All the physical materials that were present before death are still present, but the consciousness isn't. If you cloned yourself before death, your clone would have a POV, but the POV that was looking out from your body would not be it. Ergo, not "you".

@popefucker @enkiv2 @natecull no, patterns are not material, by definition. They are generalized descriptions of *arrangements* of material. They have no physical existence. You can make a square out of any materials you like. But a square itself is a pattern, not a material reality.

@popefucker @enkiv2 @natecull the evidence is the well known medical fact that if people die, and are not resuscitated within a limited timeframe, they lose continuity of consciousness, and are dead.

@popefucker @enkiv2 @natecull we know this, because we observe that when discontinuity happens to people for long enough, they die. There's hard material evidence for the necessity of continuity of consciousness from a given POV (human body). Unless you're going to back off the hard materialism, and start talking about consciousness as "pattern" rather than material. But then we're essentially talking about what you dismiss as "some kind of soul".

@popefucker @enkiv2 @natecull past "you" and future "you" are only chronologically disconnected if you choose arbitrary points of comparison that are not contiguous. But in reality, past "you" segues into present "you, who will segue into future "you", without any discontinuity.

@popefucker @enkiv2 @natecull the answer to this is similar to the answer to the monk problem. A monk walks up a hill to pray, taking exactly 5 hours. When he walks down, he also takes exactly 5 hours, but paces the journey totally differently. Will there always be at least one point where he is at the same spot, at the same point in the journey? Yes, just as there would be if there were two monks did the journey in opposite directions.

@popefucker @enkiv2 @natecull What I mean by "continuous" in this context is that you will never wake up as me, or Nate, or Ghandi, or Jesus (even if you have delusional thinking and believe you have), you will always wake up as some version or other of "you".

@popefucker @enkiv2 @natecull also, success or failure of memory is not what makes for continuity of consciousness. When you wake up, you have a sense of being the same "me" you were yesterday, and all the days before that. If you assume materialism, that's literally true, because you are looking from the same POV in space you were when you fell asleep (your body), just a slightly different time (however long your were asleep).

@popefucker @enkiv2 @natecull it's not an "idea", it's an *experience*. "I think, therefore I am". You experience a "self", a POV, which English conveniently labels "me" or "myself", or from my POV, "you". My point is that even if a sense of "me-ness" can be copied to a biological clone, or uploaded to a digital one, that *experience* your currently having cannot. Thus, digital mummy.