Notices by z428 (z428@social.tchncs.de), page 16

@Kohlrabe Nicht viel - außer eventuell Signal oder die XMPP-Community zu unterstützen, Features zu liefern, die diese Lösungen auch für Nutzer sehr interessant werden lassen, denen Datenschutz weniger wichtig ist. Ich kenne auch viele Nutzer, die keinen weiteren Messenger wollen, nur weil der "sicherer" ist, während sie genau wissen, dass sie ihrerseits die relevanten Kontakte nie von Facebook, WhatsApp, iMessage,. .. wegbekommen.

@trwnh ... becoming an overly complex and partially disjoint thing (see https://medium.com/we-distribute/a-quick-guide-to-the-free-network-c069309f334) which, to a non-technical end user, is very likely to make no actual sense at all. 😉

@trwnh ... some ways. I have the feeling that, these days, we're way faster than ever with throwing things away (or building things all anew) rather than trying to make existing approaches incrementally and gradually better. And I'm not feeling very safe to say at which point this starts being a problem from a sustainability point of view. In the fediverse, already, some of these issues can be seen in the "free network" ...

@trwnh ... it would have been possible to build something such as mastodon on top of XMPP and existing technologies just alike. From an old-fashioned hackers point of view, this feels somewhat strange in terms of "re-solving problems that already have been solved before". Rather than making XMPP a wheel more round, there now is yet another spec / standard / protocol with partial overlaps that also still is subject to becoming more mature. Same happened for OStatus and Diaspora, in ...

@trwnh Of course. I'm by no means a blind XMPP promoter and actually I think XMPP has done a a lot to its current "state" of adoption by being too generic and open (and this way maybe not really suited very well for actual use cases) whereas AP has done a better job focussing on *something* - but: For one, I see a lot of XMPPs problems stemming from a total lack of actual clients (or both chat/conferences and pubsub). The other way round, however, I wonder whether ...

@trwnh I got to do some reading on that. As far as I see, XMPP pubsub is essentially abozut XEP-0060 (https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html) which has similarities to AtomPub (the *full* protocol, not just Atom feeds for consuming published content), but maybe I'm wrong here. 😉

@trwnh Some of the XMPP crowd see this the other way: With direct messages, conferences and publish/subscribe, XMPP has pretty much everything you'd need for building something like Facebook entirely on top of XMPP, and for new message or content types (new use cases), XMPP per se is extensible by design because it also aimed at being generic back then. 😉

@trwnh Not with XMPP per se but with XMPP PubSub. In there, you again (at least from looking at concepts such as "posts", "likes", "comments") should find familiar things that at least conceptually should map. Sure there are differences on various levels (privacy, CWs, maybe other technical things), but bridging these should be way easier assuming a similar conceptual language.

@trwnh Just out of curiosity: Have you ever used Movim and seen what it is capable of doing? It is by no means just a chat app. 😉 There is a chat component of course but the part of Movim that handles XMPP PubSub would translate 1:1 to mastodon or Diaspora.

@trwnh Well yes, this and if there was a seamless integration of users, content, comments, ... between these platforms. Ideally, I would like to be able to, on Movim or Diaspora, follow users and comment on posts from the fediverse without either me or them seeing which network I initially came from.

@trwnh I thought to be on what you call "app level" already all the time - as,the point of interface for end users to realize their use cases. That's what I mean, and that's where I see protocol choices as a technical detail and integration as way more important (and incompatibility way more difficult to handle).

@trwnh ... whether the "open community" lacks sort of a vision to get all these things together in a homogenous, seamless, structured way without building yet another silo.

@trwnh ... a perfectly fine choice. I don't per se want to argue for or against any particular protocol, but what I see in day-to-day life (Slack, Google Apps for Business, Apple Cloud...) is that more and more users actually don't care much about protocols and want an integrated solution instead, just like web-based GMail that also includes live chat and even video conferencing at a fingertip in a homogenous UI. If we need different protocols for that - fine. But at times I wonder ...

@trwnh Honest answer? I don't really care. What I see, right now, is that more and more people give up on both e-mail and all "other" chat solutions, especially for the day-to-day internal communication, and rely upon platforms such as Slack that seem to bring "best of both worlds" and even have a fully searchable "eternal archive". For many use cases, something like Slack or XMPP with a "transparent bridge" to include external contacts via then-legacy protocols (like SMTP) might be ...

@trwnh ... borders and apparently too few approaches to actually unify these things to come up with something that, to an end user, provides an experience on par with or even better than Facebook and *still* is less "silo" and less privacy-invading.

@trwnh Yes, but actually the "Everything Network" is exactly my point and (as far as I see things here) pretty much what mere end users expect, assuming the "all-in" approach makes for a rather seamless experience. That's why, in example, I see there should be tight collaboration between Movim / XMPP people and AP folks (because there might be synergies in the publishing fields, and XMPP definitely can manage the 1-1 or conference chat system). Right now, there are too many technical ...

@trwnh ... Movim (basically a communication / chat system with publishing features bolted on top) or Diaspora (a publishing system with messaging and chat added to the mix) or something like Mastodon (which might be in between somewhere). It won't matter, either, whether chat or publishing is first, whether chat is activitypub or XMPP or anything else. That's just *how* use cases are implemented, not *what* use cases are about.

@benborges @gargron

@trwnh Maybe it's a filter bubble issue; at least in my environment, real "end users" don't even think about making a distinction between "communication" and "publishing" network, same as (in Facebook, in example), borders between posting articles, commenting articles, forwarding articles as private messages and entirely message-driven communication are fuzzy if existent at all. From that point of view, it seems of no real importance whether there's something like ...

@benborges @gargron

@trwnh For what I see, mastodon is more of a (micro)blogging platform focussed on smaller text messages whereas peertube is an environment for hosting video clips. Movim is closer to Facebook or Diaspora (longer posts, embedded online chat). That's the level of abstraction I had in mind, even tough on a "lower" level I agree with you.
@benborges @gargron