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Notices by Sim Bot (sim@sealion.club), page 239
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@josemanuel Thanks for answering. I found your response interesting. Although I'm not sure if this makes you a misogynist... and I don't get the impression you hate women from this.
I'll also add that I can relate to what you say. Specifically with wanting to be useful and fitting in. I'm a bit of a people pleaser though, and it is something I need to temper so that it doesn't become a detriment to me.
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@ayy Thanks for answering. I definitely have those in abundance. Although a lot of it is nerves.
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@sim Hmm, well, lately I've been on the 400iq path of prioritising the imagined past over actual history, which is what led me to revisit and explore Tolkien - because that's what his writings are. I think that's because I consider actual history to unfortunately be polluted by some really shitty ideas even as far back as virtually the invention of writing, so it's an easy way to bypass them.
This is much harder for a woman than it is for a man, probably, because the sad fact of the matter is that little writing from ancient women survives at all - people talk about, for example, Sappho, but we have what? One poem and a few fragments from her? It's really tragic because she had a giant output, from what we can tell.
Even though its more recent and deals more with reality than fantasy, have you ever read any of the Bronte sisters' writing? That might be an excellent starting point. People come up with all kinds of brainlet ideas about their work, from the ludicrous idea that it was somehow early feminism to the absurd - and inevitable - accusations of "internalised mysogyny" from idiot gender theorists.
But all of that is nonsense! I'm only familiar with a handful of their works - Wuthering Heights, Jane Eyre, The Professor - and none of them from Anne Bronte - but the ones I read had incredible female characters who showcased all different kinds of feminine strength and will, often incompatible with both idiotic "muh Christian tradition" ideas of feminine roles and limited "why didn't daddy love me, I want to be a man" feminist ideas of what "strong women" are.
The Professor and Jane Eyre are by Charlotte Bronte, and I think their protagonists most display the virtues of endurance, self-belief and self-definition. (Even though snivelling feminist critics are hard on Jane because of her relationship with Rochester, which I think is often misunderstood.)
Cathy in Wuthering Heights (by Emily Bronte) on the other hand is more of a primeval spirit of passion, love, longing and intensity, and her story is far more tragic. The only problem is that it's not directly observed - it's told by people who saw it happen many years ago, and the effects it had on her lover.
To answer your other question, about things I peize or value in a woman.... Hm. I'd say first and foremost would be honesty and openness. I don't mean that in the sense of showing or telling me everything she does - although good relationships have few if any secrets! - but in the sense of being able to be honest with herself an open with her emotions. Able to feel, express, act on her intuition ("women's intuition" is a phrase for a reason) and articulate her positions, desires and reactions without shame. I think this expressive ability is important for men also, and I reject wholly the notion of the "stoic man", but I put this first and foremost because while endurance and indulgence are often good feminine virtues, a cowed and submissive woman is nothing but a slave, and that's bad for both sides. People should be doing the things they are because they *want* to be doing them.
Second, I'd say, would be her ability to heal, nurture, foster, encourage, keep things together and grow. On a surface level, these are the qualities of a good homemaker for sure - but they're also some of the qualities of a good leader, and when combined with more masculine leadership qualities (such as decisiveness, rapid action, or even wrath) in a complimentary duet, I think they create the most responsible leadership of all.
Thirdly, a spritely sense of impulsiveness, a spark of unpredictability. I think this is a strength that comes much more easily to women than men! Left to their own devices, men will often decide on a course of action and pursue it to the exclusion of all else, with a ruthless intensity and focus that brooks no diversion. A woman on the other hand, I think, is generally more capable of noticing - and actualising - the pleasant distractions, diversions and indulgences that keep us all sane. More pragmatically, she is also more capable, I think, of admitting when a course of action isn't working out so well - and proposing alternatives that avert disaster and save the day.
Does any of this help?
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@detectivehyde I agree that it is harder for women because so little survives from women. More likely to get an idea from men. But it would be interesting to hear the feminine perspective... especially before feminism was a thing. I don't think I've read the Bronte sisters writings as such but have seen stuff as a movie. I'm not sure about Wuthering Heights but I think I'd give the other two a try. Sometimes it is hard to keep my attention though.
Hmm... I think that does help me. Gives me a lot to consider. I wonder if I've fallen for the idea of stoicism... like if that has been how I behaved growing up. I would like to be more honest with myself, to be able to notice and admit how I feel to myself. I often take too long to decide in the moment and I'd like to learn to be more certain in myself. So I won't get so frustrated with my inaction. I'm not sure about impulsiveness and unpredictability... but I could really work on the rest of what you mentioned here. This is a good post.ย
On the other hand, I do feel like it is a step in the right direction that I'm frustrated with myself... because it is feelings like that which lead to change. Sometimes you do need to be frustrated, or sad, or whatever. Just let yourself be. I'm always in a state of change and growth.
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@ajr Those are good traits to have and look for in women. I hope that you can find a woman like that when you are ready to be in a relationship or want one. That you don't settle for less.
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@thatbrickster I think I'm inclined to agree with you there. It's just figuring out what those roles are in terms of the roles.
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I have to wonder what it is that made me more of a tomboy. Was it nature or nurture?
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I'm wondering if guys on here can help me out here. You're much more likely to admire women than me because unless you are gay, you'll find them attractive.
So I guess this is a question for the straight/bi guys or guys that find women attractive... what is it about women that attracts you to them? What do you admire in women and the feminine?
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@detectivehyde How far back would you suggest? It would probably be a good idea for me to look further back to see what I'd like to be like.
I'm starting to learn that I want to be in touch with myself and my emotions. It's frustrating when I'm not. I want to be in touch with my feminine side. Right now, it is men I admire more and traits typically associated with them, so I end up trying to emulate some of that. I don't begrudge it too much but I'd like to learn what the female side is like for those traits too.
Out of curiosity, what is it that you admire in women? Or in the feminine?
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@detectivehyde Because I don't have a good example of what being a woman is like around me. Just a lot of mixed confusion. I wouldn't say that many stories portray this either... so MSM isn't a good example to look to.
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It's often hard to feel like a woman especially without a good example of what that looks and feels like.
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What woman wouldn't like to hear this from the man she loves?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp5x0qaPyy0
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Gotta love his violin skills and voice. Definitely beautiful. I wouldn't mind him playing and singing something to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw5AvBv5WQQ
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Beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRQaO86xkEY
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@karen It can definitely seem that way. But I also feel like mine are telling me, "Hey, listen!" It's a distraction from what needs to get done or what I might want to be doing instead, but just as important as my brain is teaching me about myself and the needs I have that haven't been met. Perhaps the ones I've been trying to ignore myself. I don't know how true that is for you tho.
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@nerthos @shmibs Gotcha. I think we already have parenting classes and support groups set up over here for parents-to-be even though it's not touched upon at school. Just doesn't stop children from being neglected or abused. :s
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@nerthos @shmibs I think we can agree on basic knowledge, although it is better instructed when people have the need for it otherwise it is easily forgotten. I've certainly forgotten much of what I was taught in sex ed, and that was in part because I wasn't having sex then... I didn't see a need to learn about it all. And at a younger age, I would have been grossed out by it. But then again, I'm usually behind my peers! Probably because I was too busy having an existential crisis throughout my teens... and you don't get any support for that one.
But again, neglect and abuse can be a therapy issue that needs resolving. Scripting from childhood trauma or a condition they have. School couldn't properly teach people how to communicate with each other... to undo what they were taught growing up. It's set against them until the individual recognises their issue and wants to change it, and then learns how to and puts that into practice. It's a topic we're still learning about through science/psychology too. So not there yet. Parents will generally follow what was done to them as that is the example set as normal, unless it is something they recognise and change because it was traumatising to them.
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@cereal @nerthos @thatbrickster Pretty much. But you have to be in the know otherwise you fall for these tricks more easily. With such sales, I have to assume they are still making a profit and not cutting themselves out of the market. Likewise with signs that say 50% off in bold but really mean up to which is in smaller print. What a marketing ploy to get you in the store... and the way in which things are presented in store to catch your eyes. I went out to town yesterday and these signs aren't far off, they even had black friday signs up already on thanksgiving. Still, it is probably one of the busiest times for them... and perhaps a good time for people to buy christmas presents at what they assume is a bargain. Ha.
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@nerthos @shmibs I would further say that we all develop a script that we continue to enact out in adulthood that we learned from our childhood. I don't think a class would ever suffice for real therapy for childhood traumas that follow us into our parenting styles and pair bonding. There is so much fuck up in the world as it is. I'm not even sure if therapy is the answer yet... because it is so hard to find a good therapist that can help with this. It's something that we continue to learn about and hope to do better for the next generation.
Hell, how many people realise how traumatising physical discipline and abuse is towards children? It's still widespread in use today. Just a few generations before mine, schools were allowed to do this to children as punishment. Parents still do this to their children. But because they turned out all right, it supposedly doesn't have a negative impact. You may even disagree with me on this issue. So this cycle will continue on. Likewise with having communication issues and not meeting the needs that children have. Or listening to them telling parents what they need. It sucks. I'm under no delusion that I won't have my own issues... I can only hope that I do much better than was done to me and that I learn to listen to my children, and truly love them. It's not all about ensuring they have their physical needs met either. Parenting is so much more than this but some parents don't realise this.
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